Community based project: Creating a new default UI

[SOE-Rothgar]

Zonx, I think your basic principles are dead-on.

Unfortunately the features you're describing would take a LOT of code work and I don't know that I'd be able to tackle something that big in my spare time.

I'm certainly willing to give code support when needed but I think in general we should try to make the UI work with the current implementation and UIScripting capability. We can probably use Effectors to create sliding windows that move in and out on certain events, so I think that level of polish is achievable. But the ability to dock and undock windows would be pretty difficult at this point.

I worked on some ideas last night for common controls like buttons because I really wanted to get started on something.

I think our first step is to mock up some layouts for the main HUD windows that are up all the time. The graphic polish doesnt have to be there yet, we just need to get placement and size nailed down. Then we can have some artists mock up some textures that fit the layout.

If anyone has ideas for how you'd like to see the windows organized, feel free to whip up something quick and dirty and post it here. I'll try to work on a couple of ideas myself to at least get the ball rolling. Sometimes its easier to get participation when you have a starting point and people can at least say what they like or don't like.

To start, these are the windows I think we need to organize into the HUD.

1 Chat Window with tabs
2 or 3 Hotbars (I think thats about all we could fit into an integrated HUD. Additional hotbars would probably need to float. I really want to implement the drawer concept so that 3 hotbars would be enough for most people)
XP Bar
Casting Bar
Group Window
Player Info Window
Target Window
Implied Target Window
Mini Map
Compass
Clock
Quest Helper
Maintained Buffs
Spell Effects
Detrimental Effects
Threat Meter (Many people may want to turn off the threat meter, but I think it should be designed so that when its on, it looks like its part of the top or bottom HUD bar and not be a floating window.

Let me know what you think.

[Zoltaroth-SOE]

Originally Posted by SOE-Rothgar

1 Chat Window with tabs

I may be alone in this, but I would prefer to see at least 2 windows - 1 for combat and 1 for chat both are central and should be viewed at the same time even by a newbie.

[Drumstix42]

Originally Posted by Zoltaroth-SOE

I may be alone in this, but I would prefer to see at least 2 windows - 1 for combat and 1 for chat both are central and should be viewed at the same time even by a newbie.

I used to be the same way, but I think the advanced user can get used to 1 chat window if you give it time. EQ1 didn't have chat tabs, so it took me a while..

It's not necessary to watch the damage window with the floating combat numbers. And with the ammount of numbers that can fly by, you really won't be missing anything.

Thus, I think the advanced/veteran user can do 1 chat channel. Plus I find multiple chat windows cause more FPS drops... I can't believe some play with 5 chat windows, seems very inefficient.

[gm9]

Originally Posted by Drumstix42

I can't believe some play with 5 chat windows, seems very inefficient.

I used to have 1 window for chat channels, one for guild chat, one for em/say/groupsay/raidsay and one for tells. The rest was in tabs. So /shrug, worked for me, easier for me to keep track of different conversations.

[SOE-Rothgar]

Originally Posted by Zoltaroth-SOE

I may be alone in this, but I would prefer to see at least 2 windows - 1 for combat and 1 for chat both are central and should be viewed at the same time even by a newbie.

I've always been torn between showing 1 or 2 chat windows myself. Personally I use 2 chat windows all the time because I want to see my outgoing damage separate from chat text.

The biggest problem is that making a permanent space for a second chat window eats up a LOT of screen real-estate and can turn a relatively clean, minimum UI into something more beastly.

I think it comes down to making a decision about aesthetics. The advanced user could always open a second window and find a place for it, but I'm not sure if making a dedicated spot for it in the default configuration would suit the needs of the most people.

I expect this is just the first of many issues that people will feel strongly about on both sides.

Perhaps anyone that's thinking about submitting some layout mockups could try it both ways. I'll try to make some time to do a couple rough layouts in Photoshop tonight just for window placement and see what it looks like with both 1 and 2 chat windows.

Its also possible that we could come up with 2 different layouts for the same UI. Most of the windows and common UI elements would be the same, but the windows that make up the bottom HUD bar would be slightly different to accomodate 1 or 2 chat windows. We might even be able to do this with scripting so its the same UI with different window options depending on the layout you choose.

I also agree with Drums that it would be nice to see as much performance gain as possible by keeping UI elements to a minimum.

[samejima]

Two chat boxes is useless in my opinion, you cant keep up combat scrolling by and pay attention to what you should be while fighting. Most people use the combat tab for after a wipe to see what was happening not to watch during the fight.

[dragowulf]

Originally Posted by Zoltaroth-SOE

I may be alone in this, but I would prefer to see at least 2 windows - 1 for combat and 1 for chat both are central and should be viewed at the same time even by a newbie.

That's how I am as well. I have a chat chat window and then a combat chat window

[Zonx]

2 chat windows.

1 covers actual chat I care about while doing some serious adventuring/raiding, i.e. say, shout, tells, group, raid and guild chat.

The other stuff you don't want pushing off chat or visa-versa goes in the second window.

In my case I've also split the second window into several tabs - Combat, Spells and Pets, Channels, Loot. What's displayed in the second window depends alot on what I'm doing at the moment, but its something I want to refer to frequently without having to click a control and also don't want interfering with my regular chat stream.

Absolutely a personal preference that has little to do with experience. I've been Raiding pretty hard core since EQ1 Luclin. I could live with 1 chat window if I had to... but I wouldn't like it.

[tknarr]

Originally Posted by Zoltaroth-SOE

I may be alone in this, but I would prefer to see at least 2 windows - 1 for combat and 1 for chat both are central and should be viewed at the same time even by a newbie.

It sounds like a good idea, but in practice what I find is the sheer volume of information in the combat scroll makes it impossible to use in real time. What I normally have up during combat is a window showing group chat, local text and mob speech for things like cues for the mob's attacks. I've got a combat tab, but it's normally used only post-mortem. I've taken to using tabs to separate chat, eg. I've got a "Chat" tab with things like level chat on it, a "Game" tab with the text that's important when concentrating on current play, and a "Main" tab with the text I pay attention to when just running around or taking care of things. Eg. guild chat is on the Main tab but not the Game tab, level chat channels go only on the Chat tab. Plus of course the "Combat" tab with the full combat-related scroll and no non-combat-related stuff.

IMO allow the UI to support multiple chat windows, but start the new user off with a single window with just a couple of tabs. Also, it'd be helpful if somewhere there was a description of all the text selection checkboxes and the kinds of text they control. Some are obvious, but other times it's not clear what falls into which category.

[Drumstix42]

Old habits die hard, that's for sure. But like I said above, I was also someone who did the more than 1 chat window, and started out that way in EQ2.

While I do find it annoying to have to scroll over (say you have too many chat tabs in one window), it'd still probably work better for the implementation as Rothgar stated.

Personally I wish custom sound triggers existed in-game, rather than through external log readers. I simply just don't like turn on logging unless I really wanna test out DPS.

Another thing that I hate, is you can only totally filter out so much through options. The rest is controlled through Chat Filters, and they have to go SOMEWHERE. If you uncheck it from a secondary tab/window... it goes back to Main chat..... annoying to me...

Ok getting off track
Hoping to mess with mock-ups here soon...

[tknarr]

Originally Posted by Drumstix42

Another thing that I hate, is you can only totally filter out so much through options. The rest is controlled through Chat Filters, and they have to go SOMEWHERE. If you uncheck it from a secondary tab/window... it goes back to Main chat..... annoying to me...

The workaround I used was that the first physical tab I have is the "A" tab. It has every single chat-text type and chat channel selected. I never look at it (except maybe when doing a /report), it's just a placeholder. I'm not sure it's needed for it's original purpose anymore (keeping channel numbering consistent every time I log in) but it does simplify keeping certain categories completely off the other tabs.

[foozlesprite]

I used to use multiple chat windows, but since I play a priest I have a zillion hotbars open for rezzes, buffs, etc. so I don't have a lot of screen space even with a 1440x900 monitor. I've consolidated it into one window with four tabs: General (channels, ooc, say, quest text, etc), Combat, Guild, and Tells.

One thing most casual players don't know about tabs that is very helpful: when you receive a new message in a nonactive tab, the tab label color changes. A change this small is often missed. If you decide to use tabs in this UI, perhaps we could see a small ! icon appear when there is new text in a tab. This would be more intuitive and noticeable.

As for the combat tab...I rarely ever look at it. When you add in procs, haste, or other players, the amount of spam makes it far too fast to bother looking at during a fight. So personally I don't feel like it warrants a separate window, because as mentioned above you can keep track of that stuff just as easily with floating numbers.

[SOE-Rothgar]

Originally Posted by foozlesprite

As for the combat tab...I rarely ever look at it. When you add in procs, haste, or other players, the amount of spam makes it far too fast to bother looking at during a fight. So personally I don't feel like it warrants a separate window, because as mentioned above you can keep track of that stuff just as easily with floating numbers.

I think in most cases, people filter this stuff out of their combat tab so they only see the info they are interested in.

[tlh4me]

This has been an interesting thread to see, I rarely come here anymore but wanted to see what was needed to make the new maps and saw this thread and got completely derailed.

Firstly - 1 chat window would be my recommendation. Reason: combat window is worthless, thats what ACT is for. If you need real time information concerning your combat log you arent going to get it from reading the scrolling text. I like the tabbed approach, its easy enough to click back and forth. Level 1-9 chat has become really the defacto chat channel on most servers it seems due to alt necessity. So many people I know anyway have one tab set up for combat, 1 for all chat channels, and the primary has group/guild/1-9/70-79/tells in it for the things you typically want to see anyway.

(2) Agree that the primary benefits to the new UI should be increased functionality, minimalized foot print and lanscape usage.

(3) With regards to advanced features such as click to cure. I think even though these are advanced features they are more helpful to newer and more casual players in understanding their class and getting some assistance in playing them. This is one of the most useful mods out there and personally I think it should be included.

[dragowulf]

Originally Posted by tlh4me

This has been an interesting thread to see, I rarely come here anymore but wanted to see what was needed to make the new maps and saw this thread and got completely derailed.

Firstly - 1 chat window would be my recommendation. Reason: combat window is worthless, thats what ACT is for. If you need real time information concerning your combat log you arent going to get it from reading the scrolling text. I like the tabbed approach, its easy enough to click back and forth. Level 1-9 chat has become really the defacto chat channel on most servers it seems due to alt necessity. So many people I know anyway have one tab set up for combat, 1 for all chat channels, and the primary has group/guild/1-9/70-79/tells in it for the things you typically want to see anyway.

(2) Agree that the primary benefits to the new UI should be increased functionality, minimalized foot print and lanscape usage.

(3) With regards to advanced features such as click to cure. I think even though these are advanced features they are more helpful to newer and more casual players in understanding their class and getting some assistance in playing them. This is one of the most useful mods out there and personally I think it should be included.

The PvP server is big in population and I guarantee you that most PvPers use at least 2 chat windows. I do myself.

[Lodrelhai]

Okay, mock-up for a HUD layout, based on 1024x768 resolution. It's not perfect, obviously, and I think some tweaks need to be done to the windows themselves before we can get anything finalized:



I've got 3 hotbars there, since that's the number of hotbars we can access via keyboard. The third could be removed and the compass, clock, and eq2 button moved under them. Or, more likely, the hotbars then swapped with the active quest window. Either way, quest window then made a bit taller.

Dead space needs some severe trimming! The amount of border on some of these windows is insane. Casting bar and effects windows particularly could use the cut.

I couldn't get an implied target window up, but ideally it'd be under the target window.

Connection stat thingamabob was left open in error - but I do think that's a decent place for it.

No clue whatsoever where the minimap would plug in on this.

Rothgar repeatedly mentioned having the casting bar included in the HUD. I've got it there (though it needs trimming to fit in its intended place), but honestly, I think it shouldn't be included, simply because it's a window that is rarely up and only for short durations.

[Drumstix42]

Super duper necro bump....

So, @samejima, how did you do Auto Attacker timers before the DynamicData went live?

[Zoltaroth-SOE]

Originally Posted by tknarr

It sounds like a good idea, but in practice what I find is the sheer volume of information in the combat scroll makes it impossible to use in real time. What I normally have up during combat is a window showing group chat, local text and mob speech for things like cues for the mob's attacks. I've got a combat tab, but it's normally used only post-mortem. I've taken to using tabs to separate chat, eg. I've got a "Chat" tab with things like level chat on it, a "Game" tab with the text that's important when concentrating on current play, and a "Main" tab with the text I pay attention to when just running around or taking care of things. Eg. guild chat is on the Main tab but not the Game tab, level chat channels go only on the Chat tab. Plus of course the "Combat" tab with the full combat-related scroll and no non-combat-related stuff.

IMO allow the UI to support multiple chat windows, but start the new user off with a single window with just a couple of tabs. Also, it'd be helpful if somewhere there was a description of all the text selection checkboxes and the kinds of text they control. Some are obvious, but other times it's not clear what falls into which category.

Curious as to what class you play? My class requires me to time CAs between AA rounds and I find the combat window useful for that.

[reins]

Easiest solution for the two chat windows, ask Samejima really nicely to release his autoattack cast bar for the project Or spend some coding time to recreate it.

[Zoltaroth-SOE]

Originally Posted by reins

Easiest solution for the two chat windows, ask Samejima really nicely to release his autoattack cast bar for the project Or spend some coding time to recreate it.

I *really* like this idea. *Wanders off to Rothgar's office to bug him about it*

[reins]

Originally Posted by Zoltaroth-SOE

I *really* like this idea. *Wanders off to Rothgar's office to bug him about it*

So now that there is some dev attention on the topic, how the heck did Raz(Samejima) do it? =\ The thread here on it died a while back and my side efforts proved futile.

[Zoltaroth-SOE]

Originally Posted by Zoltaroth-SOE

I *really* like this idea. *Wanders off to Rothgar's office to bug him about it*

Ok I am finishing up this functionality today, but I wouldn't expect to see it until GU52. Basically I am giving you 3 new elements:

Self.TimeSinceAutoAttack
Self.TimeSinceSecondaryAutoAttack
Self.TimeSinceRangedAutoAttack

These will all have the following meaning:

Float Val => milliseconds since last auto attack around
Progress Value => Float Val / Weapon Delay

Does that sound about right to everyone?

[tknarr]

Originally Posted by Zoltaroth-SOE

Curious as to what class you play? My class requires me to time CAs between AA rounds and I find the combat window useful for that.

Berserker. Most of my CAs are one of two lengths, so I find it easier to just work out how many CAs per autoattack swing and then pause a beat at the appropriate count. I probably lose a few swings, but it's sufficiently close (especially since TSO with taunts and hate generation taking priority over sheer DPS for holding aggro). Part of it's that we tend to avoid things where it's absolutely critical that everybody be at 100%, I take being that close to the edge as a sign we need bigger guns. Old Shin'ain proverb: "If you find yourself in a fair fight, it means you screwed up somewhere in the planning stages."

If I needed better timing, rather than watching the combat scroll I'd probably just set up audio triggers in ACT (ding on auto-attack going off, dong at weapon delay - 0.5s later to cue me for the upcoming swing). That way I can get the cues without having to try and spot them in a scroll that's going by too fast to read.

[dragowulf]

I thought docking would be semi possible because i just noticed earlier that the voice bar docks on to the chat window.

[lordebon]

Originally Posted by dragowulf

I thought docking would be semi possible because i just noticed earlier that the voice bar docks on to the chat window.

God I hated that when it first came out.

Back to the topic... I personally think 2 chat windows are useful and should be incorporated. Make one optional -- give it a place to be, but don't make it so integral that it looks wrong if it's not there.