Request for changes to eq2map

[Talyns]

Hey guys what up.. I have some ideas for you to chew on.. (Attached)

I have found, what I think is, a better way to plugin options into the EQ2Map project.. I have modded it so that you can have 4 "plugins" installed at one time.. Changes in EQ2UI_Mainhud_Map.xml are minimal for this.. 4 includes and 4 lines of script

I have also made some examples (Edit: not 100% done with any, but they all work well enough to install and check out)
There's 6 or 7 examples but they are not polished just wanted to get them in there to show some examples on using them and to test it..

I also implemented a minimap feature.. Changes for this are many.
Edit: I'm not 100% done with everything yet.. Still needs polish.. But it's in a good enough shape to be shown..

off hand I remember:

I had to move the Icons out of QM_Overlay into the MapPage and renamed it QM_Icons(So they could be dragged with it)
Had to change a lot of scripts in quite a few files for this.. (Under_ files)

I added two buttons to the titlebar for minimap feature.. Also had to add two windows to make a different style window when in mini-mode.. (Window frame and title bar needs to be on way top)

I changed the way the MapBorder works.. (Seperated into 2 windows(files) MapOverlay and MapUnderlay)

I changed the way QM_MinimizeButton and QM_RestoreButton worked so I could "press" them through my scripts..

I also added a MapImageOverlay.. I use this in one of the options to make the maps a little darker.. I don't like them so bright..

I'm sure you will rip it apart if you like it If you have any questions let me know..

Here's a jpg of the Minimap: http://www.eq2interface.com/forums/a...tid=1652&stc=1

Edit: I don't know if this works with autoupdater at all.. I used latest download available when making it.. Should be installed over that..

I will polish it all up if you guys like it..

[Quib]

Ok, here's the deal: I'll look over your code and give it a fair analysis, but keep in mind that the structure was decided upon during about a month of testing and brainstorming. There's already a couple things that I can comment on before even reviewing the code.

The minimap feature by default is a no. It's far above and beyond the default map window functionality. To have it as an optional mod is good though as long as it can be worked into a decent plug-in form.

Moving the overlay to within MapPage completely destroys the idea behind the overlays. Rather than those POIs being hidden by the fog, you can see them upon zoning in (into a new zone where none of the fog has been uncovered) because they are a layer above the fog (and unfortunately the location arrow).

The changes to mapborder, minimize button, added optional plug-ins and the darkening overlay (for people who have their brightness turned up too high perhaps?) I will go over with a fine-tooth comb (well, I will really go over it all very carefully). So I'll let ya know what's up later.

Quib

[Talyns]

Originally Posted by Quib

Ok, here's the deal: I'll look over your code and give it a fair analysis, but keep in mind that the structure was decided upon during about a month of testing and brainstorming.

Ahh I see, I didn't think any think was set in stone yet.. I tried not to hack it up too bad.. Just what was absolutely needed for the minimap.. But thanks for looking

Originally Posted by Quib

There's already a couple things that I can comment on before even reviewing the code.

The minimap feature by default is a no. It's far above and beyond the default map window functionality. To have it as an optional mod is good though as long as it can be worked into a decent plug-in form.

I didn't mean for it to be a standard feature.. Could make a plugin that makes the buttons visible.. I tried to implement it in a way that it would work with any skin, as long as they re-skinned the two dockwindow pieces.. Also, I didn't think you were trying to keep it "simple" or mimic the default so closely..
I just can't stand that huge map window (It should be resizable and have scrollbars)

Originally Posted by Quib

Moving the overlay to within MapPage completely destroys the idea behind the overlays. Rather than those POIs being hidden by the fog, you can see them upon zoning in (into a new zone where none of the fog has been uncovered) because they are a layer above the fog (and unfortunately the location arrow).

Unfortunately, unless you move those icon's, I can't really see a way of making a minimap feature.. Unless you figure out how to move the map and overlay with buttons which could work.. I set it up so you grab the MapPage to move it.. If the icons are seperate they won't move with the map.. Too bad there's no OnMoved event

I'm pretty sure the location arrow part can be fixed.. As for the POI's being under the fog that's closer to the default map window functionality J/K

Is there a way to remove the fog all togethether? It would make the all the maps work the same (no fog, like all added maps?)

Originally Posted by Quib

The changes to mapborder, minimize button, added optional plug-ins and the darkening overlay (for people who have their brightness turned up too high perhaps?) I will go over with a fine-tooth comb (well, I will really go over it all very carefully). So I'll let ya know what's up later.

Quib

The mapborder changes were needed to make the minimap. No other reason.

I can tell you it's not my brightness.. Most people tell me my settings are too dark.. I just think the map parchment paper is blaringly bright.. The only way to darken it is to darken the whole images

The plugin system is basically the same as before except it uses 4 windows as pluging slots..

Again thanks for atleast looking at it..

[Quib]

Ok, your minimap is impressive, I'm still sorting through everything it needs to be functional.

The fog issue has come up a few times, the "best" way to remove the fog results in the users location arrow not showing up until they've zoned once (or changed halves of the map in two+ map zones). This is an unacceptable kludge; the other problem is very specific conditions have to be met for it to work at all: the map window must be closed when camping, and opened once before the first zoning. Also, I'm not sure SOE really approves of us defeating the fog layer, it's actual pretty hard to get around.

Here're the three basic goals goals I have in mind when working on the format of the map window:
1) Same size as default (this one seems to bother mod authors the most; the style sets allow this to be modified, but by default the map window should LOOK just like the default map window. We're adding maps not trying to dictate the users UI style).
2) Pack it full of information that isn't in the default UI elsewhere, but don't repeat data (this is why, by default, the map window doesn't have a label for your current loc, though I must say, your when-mouse-isn't-over path finder thing was really clever).
3) Avoid changing default functionality of the map window beyond a certain point (which is arbitrary, this is the most wishy-washy of my rules).

The minimap conflicts with goal 1; a second window increases the screen real-estate of the map window, even if it can be hidden. The quests window is an example of a feature that will increase the map window size, but will be an optional download. The minimize button conflicts with goal 1 but is being left in due to a grandfather clause; it's been there since really early on. I should probably make it a plug-in, but it's not high on my priority list.

Goal 2 actually also conflicts with the minimap; it's repeating data already visible in the map window. Keep in mind I love the idea of a minimap and will be using one myself (I've played with Zonx's minimap in various forms quite a bit). So my arguments against one aren't due to a personal aversion to a minimap in particular.

The minimap really doesn't conflict functionality-wise I guess, it's just another map. The no-closing-on-escape violates this goal, but, like the minimize button, it's been there since early on. I'm leaving this one in and just relying on an optional download to restore closing-on-escape. The pathfinder doesn't conflict with this because it's simply another POI; the user can just plug in the loc data manually.

Anyway, I'm not dismissing your work or anything, I'd like to implement all of it in some form or another most likely, it'll just be a bit; we're 99% done with the full auto-updating system and so am tied up with bug shooting that right now.

Quib

[Talyns]

Originally Posted by Quib

Ok, your minimap is impressive, I'm still sorting through everything it needs to be functional.

Just remember it's just a preview.. I uploaded it to see if it's worth the effort for me to pursue..

Originally Posted by Quib

The fog issue has come up a few times, the "best" way to remove the fog results in the users location arrow not showing up until they've zoned once (or changed halves of the map in two+ map zones). This is an unacceptable kludge; the other problem is very specific conditions have to be met for it to work at all: the map window must be closed when camping, and opened once before the first zoning. Also, I'm not sure SOE really approves of us defeating the fog layer, it's actual pretty hard to get around.

I tried getting it not to display (when I was working on the map in my UI) but had no luck.. I will have to check out your method..

Personally I think the only thing the fog is good for is showing where you explored and where you didn't.. Anyone who has brains enough to download your mod has brains enough to check out the maps on maps.eqInterface.com before actually exploring there. Makes the fog kind of annoying when you know what the map already looks like.. I know many people that would agree with me.. I don't see why sony would get upset if it was removed However the problem you described gets in the way..

It actually looks like there are 2 fog layers in the game.. If you look at the black fog you can see like a drop shadow underneath it.. That dropshadow, I believe, is the fog they use in citys.. Wish we could get rid of the black but keep the semi-transparent..

Wish we could find the name and location of the fog elements so we could manipulate them in scripts..

I can probably set it up without moving the QM_Overlay but it would require 9 pages of 8 buttons on each page.. Thats 72 buttons to code and it makes it less functional IMO.. Or 9 pages and 8 buttons with a ton of scripting.. But I'm taking a break from modding today!

Here're the three basic goals goals I have in mind when working on the format of the map window:
1) Same size as default (this one seems to bother mod authors the most; the style sets allow this to be modified, but by default the map window should LOOK just like the default map window. We're adding maps not trying to dictate the users UI style).


The minimap conflicts with goal 1; a second window increases the screen real-estate of the map window, even if it can be hidden. The quests window is an example of a feature that will increase the map window size, but will be an optional download. The minimize button conflicts with goal 1 but is being left in due to a grandfather clause; it's been there since really early on. I should probably make it a plug-in, but it's not high on my priority list.

Never sacrifice features for looks!! Sony released a 1/2 finished UI system.. 100% evident in the map window and the chat system.. Features like minimize and restore(Like eq1 had but better).. and a resizable map window(EQ1 didnt have but it should!) should have been in the game since release.. Along with all the maps you guys are adding.. Adding buttons doesn't change the "look" of the window just adds some function..

Minimap doesn't add a window per say.. It makes the map smaller when you press a button.. Takes up less real estate.. It doesn't actually open another window.. When the button isn't pressed it looks just like the default with an extra button..

2) Pack it full of information that isn't in the default UI elsewhere, but don't repeat data (this is why, by default, the map window doesn't have a label for your current loc, though I must say, your when-mouse-isn't-over path finder thing was really clever).

Goal 2 actually also conflicts with the minimap; it's repeating data already visible in the map window. Keep in mind I love the idea of a minimap and will be using one myself (I've played with Zonx's minimap in various forms quite a bit). So my arguments against one aren't due to a personal aversion to a minimap in particular.

Actually it's not repeating anything.. It changes the layout of the window.. It's the same window there for no way it could repeat information..

3) Avoid changing default functionality of the map window beyond a certain point (which is arbitrary, this is the most wishy-washy of my rules).

The minimap really doesn't conflict functionality-wise I guess, it's just another map. The no-closing-on-escape violates this goal, but, like the minimize button, it's been there since early on. I'm leaving this one in and just relying on an optional download to restore closing-on-escape. The pathfinder doesn't conflict with this because it's simply another POI; the user can just plug in the loc data manually.

Again it doesn't add anything it changes the layout of the window.. It doesn't change any funtionality it just adds some! And I was working on making it an optional download from the start.. The default download would have 2 "blank" windows in it for minimap to plugin to..

Anyway, I'm not dismissing your work or anything, I'd like to implement all of it in some form or another most likely, it'll just be a bit; we're 99% done with the full auto-updating system and so am tied up with bug shooting that right now.

Quib

I don't see you as dismissive.. If you were you wouldn't have even looked at it or replied.. And, we wouldn't be discussing it at all

[Deathbane27]

I'm picking this apart myself too. If we're lucky we can find a way to make it so that this can be a plug-in for the map without altering the existing functionality (and thus not have Quib be bugged by it. )

In the meantime, we should be able to get the overlay to recenter with OnHoverIn and OnHoverOut, it just won't move directly with the MapPage. (Or would it be vice versa?)

[Killarny]

Originally Posted by Talyns

Features like minimize and restore(Like eq1 had but better).. and a resizable map window(EQ1 didnt have but it should!) should have been in the game since release

I've been wondering about these since I saw people adding them to various mods.. What do people use minimize for? I mean, everything is tied to a toggleable hotkey anyway, so why add a repetitive feature?

[Quib]

Totally misunderstood the code I was looking at with your minimap Talyns. I thought it was doing another window Zonx minimap style. I actually haven't been able to load it in-game because there's been a couple big changes getting ready for fully auto-updating and didn't have a copy of the last release handy. Guess I'll go download what I uploaded. =D

Never sacrifice features for looks!! Sony released a 1/2 finished UI system.. 100% evident in the map window and the chat system.. Features like minimize and restore(Like eq1 had but better).. and a resizable map window(EQ1 didnt have but it should!) should have been in the game since release.. Along with all the maps you guys are adding.. Adding buttons doesn't change the "look" of the window just adds some function..

Hehe, I believe form is as important as function, so we've got some ideological differences here. Other than a 1 pixel gap between the default map window's titlebar and the rest of the window, I didn't see anything half-finished about it. I agree that buttons don't hurt a window, I just feel keeping proportions the same is important. When I load a non-default UI, I don't want to HAVE to move a single window; keeping the map window its original size means it's exactly where the user expects it to be.

Killarny, the main reason I originally tacked a minimize button on the map window was because of the pathfinder; you can use the map window solely for getting paths to locations without having the whole map block your view. Also remember that was months ago, and stuff like minimize buttons were fresh off the drawing board as OnEvent capabilities were first being realized.

Quib

[Killarny]

I wasn't criticising, just asking about something that's made me wonder for a while

[Talyns]

Breaks over, here's a version where I didn't mess with QM_Overlay

Only changes to eq2ui_mainhud_map are some includes and 4 lines of code for the plugins.. Map now moves in minimapmode with 5 buttons that are part of the Minimap Window..

Check it out

Note: You should NOT install this over my previous proposal.. It will not work correcty..

Edit: Just wanted to add: I don't know what I was thinking of with the 9 pages and 8 buttons on each page.. Thank god it only took 5 buttons!

[Talyns]

Originally Posted by Quib

Hehe, I believe form is as important as function, so we've got some ideological differences here. Other than a 1 pixel gap between the default map window's titlebar and the rest of the window, I didn't see anything half-finished about it. I agree that buttons don't hurt a window, I just feel keeping proportions the same is important.

The whole map system (And UI for that matter)is half implemented.. The fog and encrtypting of maps is a good Idea (If you're gonna do maps for every zone in the game).. The fog is good because it covers their icons.. They could have had very detailed maps with icons to everything (because you can't see them till you find them), and eliminated the need for mapsites.. The map window that ships with the game could have been left out completely and I wouldn't of missed it.. The way it is now (without eqmap) I have to switch in and out of game and look at the various map sites to find what I'm looking for.. Even for zones where maps exist in game..

That's what I meant by the 1/2 finished comment..

[Talyns]

Originally Posted by Killarny

I've been wondering about these since I saw people adding them to various mods.. What do people use minimize for? I mean, everything is tied to a toggleable hotkey anyway, so why add a repetitive feature?

I use them in my chat window, because there is no hotkey..
Also some people don't use the keyboard for anything but chatting..

[Talyns]

Originally Posted by Deathbane27

I'm picking this apart myself too. If we're lucky we can find a way to make it so that this can be a plug-in for the map without altering the existing functionality (and thus not have Quib be bugged by it. )

In the meantime, we should be able to get the overlay to recenter with OnHoverIn and OnHoverOut, it just won't move directly with the MapPage. (Or would it be vice versa?)

I missed this before sorry..

I'm trying to make it a plug in.. It's a work in progress..

In fact, in the version I just uploaded, to rip it out you would just include 2 "blank" includes for the minimap.. I still have to set it up that the dock and undock button are hidden unless the option is installed but I consider that the polish work.

I don't want to do any polish work on something that isn't going to get used

[Deathbane27]

Actually, it looks like we don't need the script changes either. Basically we just need two <include>s placed BEFORE QM_Overlay in the main file. Just have the ones that come with the main download just be blank or zero-size absorbsinput=false pages, and we're good. Name them window_overlay1.xml and window_overlay2.xml or something. (We might actually only need 1 for this, but two would be nice in case something else comes up. Why not make it 3?)

That work, Quib?

[Talyns]

Originally Posted by Deathbane27

Actually, it looks like we don't need the script changes either. Basically we just need two <include>s placed BEFORE QM_Overlay in the main file. Just have the ones that come with the main download just be blank or zero-size absorbsinput=false pages, and we're good. Name them window_overlay1.xml and window_overlay2.xml or something. (We might actually only need 1 for this, but two would be nice in case something else comes up. Why not make it 3?)

That work, Quib?

I know we don't need the script changes for the minimap, those are for the plugin system I made

I tried getting it working with only one overlay but couldn't get it to move all the time.. The second one is the titlebar and lets you move the window when in mini map mode..

I'm working on seperating it completely from eq2map right now.. The only thing that will be left is 2 "empty" buttons it the titlebar xml.. The mini map will be self contained in three files!

[Talyns]

Ok I'm done seperating it.. Check out how it could work..

Note: I added another plugin slot called TM_PluginMinimap.. This is what sets the dock and undock button when its installed..

So the only changes to eq2ui_mainhud_map.xml are a bunch of include changes and 5 lines of script in onshow2..

Edit:
The script additions are:
TM_PluginMinimap.Visible=true
TM_Plugin1.Visible=true
TM_Plugin2.Visible=true
TM_Plugin3.Visible=true
TM_Plugin4.Visible=true

All of the added includes are blank.. With exception to the mapunderlay and overlay.. They make up the map frame and tan background that was in window_mapborder.xml

[Quib]

Gah you did a lot while I was busy this evening. So here's the deal: we DEFINATELY will get this worked in. Default will be empty files (like Eloa's eventual quest plug-in). Like Eloa's quest plug-in, I want the "slot" for the minimap to be able to be used for other functions should the end user see fit (well and some modder to come up with something). Give me a little time to look over the new stuff and see how it works. So that I'm not going in blind, can you explain (again, sorry) why the split in mapborder.xml?

Killarny, no worries, was just giving you a fair response to your question about the minimize button; I only saw you as asking a question, not criticizing or anything.

Quib

[Talyns]

Originally Posted by Quib

Gah you did a lot while I was busy this evening. So here's the deal: we DEFINATELY will get this worked in. Default will be empty files (like Eloa's eventual quest plug-in). Like Eloa's quest plug-in, I want the "slot" for the minimap to be able to be used for other functions should the end user see fit (well and some modder to come up with something). Give me a little time to look over the new stuff and see how it works. So that I'm not going in blind, can you explain (again, sorry) why the split in mapborder.xml?

Killarny, no worries, was just giving you a fair response to your question about the minimize button; I only saw you as asking a question, not criticizing or anything.

Quib

The reason for splitting it is so the frame is on top of the map at all times because the map moves around the window.. I don't use the mapoverlay in the proposal version when in minimode but some modder might use it for something..

The underlay stays under the map.. Its basically the tan color..
I use the under lay to hide the tabpane when in minimode..

That change isn't 100% needed.. But it makes things so much easier.. Also, it's something skinners can use when modding..

Edit: Also I would add one extra Window_Overlay thats on top of everything.. Just incase a modder finds some use for it..

Edit2: I would suggest removing the QM_Loc window from titlebar to it's own window and put it on top of the minimap so I can make it visible in docked mode!! Maybe include the include statement in the window_overlay from the above edit!!

[Talyns]

I want to add something else to the above message.. I also edited the above message twice so please read edits..

Originally Posted by Quib

Gah you did a lot while I was busy this evening. So here's the deal: we DEFINATELY will get this worked in. Default will be empty files (like Eloa's eventual quest plug-in). Like Eloa's quest plug-in, I want the "slot" for the minimap to be able to be used for other functions should the end user see fit (well and some modder to come up with something).

I actually did a lot more work last night! Making the changes I did tonight were minimal compared to that.. I tried to make it as modular as eq2map itself from the start

Version 3 is set up like what I thought you would have in mind for eloa plugin.. It just takes 2 windows and a plugin to accomplish it
The "plugin" "slot" (LOL) shouldn't be hard coded in anyway..

I will polish up(graphically and functionality) the Minimap plugin when/if you give me the go ahead and I get a new eq2_mainhud_map.xml from you with support for it..

[Quib]

Originally Posted by Talyns

Edit2: I would suggest removing the QM_Loc window from titlebar to it's own window and put it on top of the minimap so I can make it visible in docked mode!! Maybe include the include statement in the window_overlay from the above edit!!

Quick reply before I get to bed. It used to be this way (long before EQ2MAP was modular) but then it didn't receive the "Frame and Title" opacity settings (which it's a part of). I recall they added some sort of transparency matching properties for the chat window and the tab bar, but changing the structure here would involve a LOT of changes. Every single POI icon would need its OnHoverIn changed.

My afternoon tomorrow is free. I'll sleep on this all and see what needs to be done to make this work. There aren't really "if"s here; I'm gonna find a way to work in support for both your and Zonx's minimap styles; it'll take compromises on both our parts I'm sure (well, as far as one UI window is concerned =P), but support from and for the EQ2UI community is important for this project.

Quib

[Talyns]

Originally Posted by Quib

Quick reply before I get to bed. It used to be this way (long before EQ2MAP was modular) but then it didn't receive the "Frame and Title" opacity settings (which it's a part of). I recall they added some sort of transparency matching properties for the chat window

FrameControl and BackdropControl

and the tab bar, but changing the structure here would involve a LOT of changes. Every single POI icon would need its OnHoverIn changed.

That's no big deal No need for it really when in minimode I guess.. You can still click the POI's

My afternoon tomorrow is free. I'll sleep on this all and see what needs to be done to make this work. There aren't really "if"s here; I'm gonna find a way to work in support for both your and Zonx's minimap styles; it'll take compromises on both our parts I'm sure (well, as far as one UI window is concerned =P), but support from and for the EQ2UI community is important for this project.

Quib

Cool.. That's what I like to hear!!

I'm attaching updated plugins.. All working as intended I believe..

I was thinking maybe put all the plugin includes in it's own page
Then only include that page in EQ2UI_mainhud_map.xml..

The OnShow of that page should show all the sub-pages (plugins) to initialize them..

Then it's only one line in the onhide2 script
And one include for the plugin system..

Go get some sleep

[Talyns]

I'm working on the plugin system and have made it so simple and useful imo..

The minimap will be a plugin and work like all the rest of the plugins..
The way the map moves with the buttons now it only needs one page.. Come to think of it I could have probably got away with one page from the beginning like deathbane said..

The only impact on any of your files will be one include and one line of script in the mainhud_map file..

I'll have a proof of concept up to look at in a bit..



Edit: oops and a couple minor script changes the qm_buttons and wc_close buttons in the WindowTitlebar so I can press them through script.. But I don't need to add any buttons there now

[Talyns]

Ok here it is..
I lied there were 3 changes to the EQ2UI_Mainhud_map.xml..

1. Added TM_Plugins.Visible=true to the onhide2 in the map page..
2. Added an include for plugins.xml above the QM_Overlay Page
3. Broke apart the map border..

If you look at the included fuile (plugins.xml) you'll notices that it has 5 includes there.. They are not located in a page.. And a page (MainHUD.Map.TM_Plugins) This page initializes the other pages..

The 5 includes make 5 pages in MainHUD.Map not MainHUD.Map.TM_Plugins..

All the plugins are blank right now.. I only did one and that's the Minimap..

If you look at the minimap you'll notice that it use Plugin_1.xml instead of a unique one..
If you look at it you'll notice it's a page and 2 includes outside of the page.. The 2 includes outside of the page adds 2 pages I need right to MainHUD.Map..


In other words the every page I add is a child of Root.MainHUD.Map.. The xml tree looks like this without my modifications:

-Map
--QM_Overlay
---Icons

When I add the plugins file to it the tree would look like this

-Map
--TM_Plugins
--TM_Plugin1
--TM_Plugin2
--TM_Plugin3
--TM_Plugin4
--TM_Plugin5
--QM_Overlay
---Icons

When I add my minimap:
-Map
--TM_Plugins
--TM_Plugin1
--Minimap_Title
--Minimap_Window
--TM_Plugin2
--TM_Plugin3
--TM_Plugin4
--TM_Plugin5
--QM_Overlay
---Icons
Hope that's not too confusing.. If it is look at the code.. Load it up in uibuilder to look at the tree with and without the minimap plugin installed..

This needs to be istalled over a fresh install of the main eq2map download to work..

[Talyns]

I was thinking of a way to add some kinde of OnEvent code to the above plugin system..

Could add 4 buttons in plugins.xml OnHide OnShow OnMinimize OnRestore..
The OnActivate for them would be..

Parent.Parent.TM_Plugin1.OnEvent.Activated=true
Parent.Parent.TM_Plugin2.OnEvent.Activated=true
Parent.Parent.TM_Plugin3.OnEvent.Activated=true
Parent.Parent.TM_Plugin4.OnEvent.Activated=true
Parent.Parent.TM_Plugin5.OnEvent.Activated=true
Activated=false

Don't have to add anything to any of the blank plugins..


If a modder wanted something to happen when the window minimizes: he/she would add a button to the plugin page called OnMinimize.. Then set the OnActivate script to get something to useful and ending it with Activated=false

For Instance:
I want to add a minimize button to the minimap that presses the mainwindows minimize..
Right now that won't work because my windows cover the titlebar.. But if I had the on events I could save the visible state of my title bar on minimize..

Then in OnRestore I use that visible state to press(or not press) my DockButton to change the window back to its minimap state

I will sleep on it aand work on adding it tomorrow night..

Forgot to mention the OnHide of the main map window would call the OnHide button.. The OnShow would be called in the final version OnShow.. Restore and Minimize in the Onactivate events of those buttons in the title bar

[Quib]

Ok, I finally figured out what you were talking about with OnActivate. I had never worked with that OnEvent, but I see how you're using it to basically press other buttons. I'm a little perplexed why you want to though. Like the close button; if you have another button sending a message to the close button... why not just make your button Visible=false the main Map page itself? Also, does OnActivate work in place of OnPress or along side it? Like, could a button have OnActivate and OnPress and they'd both work?

I understand what you're wanting with the minimizing, but wouldn't it be easier to have your own minimize button that performs its own actions?

I understand the includes within an included XML thing perfectly; don't worry about there being any confusion there, but why bother with including the 5 plugin XMLs in a child XML? It'd be more efficient to just include them all in the parent XML and make all the calls direcly from the main OnEvents.

Splitting up the mapborder is gonna have to be a no. Layering the border on top of the MapPage does this ugly thing of putting the tabs behind it at all times, so the current active tab isn't over it. Can't you just make a new border to go over the map when in MiniMap mode? Plus the mapborder was all combined in a previous request, so splitting it up again would be working backwards.

The plugin system (rather, just adding a handful of plugin slots) is a good idea. Using OnActivate to pass OnEvents along is brilliant (wish I had know about that, I've been using OnShow/OnHide).

Quib